Upon Further Review: Collateral Murder?
I gave my analysis, based on what I could see on the tape, including my conclusion that the crew failed to ascertain the group of men was in fact comprised of enemy fighters.
Since then I have obtained and read the Army’s 15–6 investigation,
which concludes the Reuters cameraman and the driver “were in the
company of armed insurgents who had been firing on Bravo company…”. The
investigation, which you can read here in its entirety, says two RPGs and one AK-47 assault rifle were found at the scene.
The
report includes still frames from the same video released by WikiLeaks
Monday and highlights where one man can be seen carrying a gun, and
another an RPG round. I have to say, to my untrained eye, I could not
determine those fuzzy images were weapons. It also shows U.S. soldiers
carrying the wounded children away from the scene.The report adds more facts to help explain the context of what happened including a report from soldiers on the ground who reported they were still taking small arms fire and RPG when they got to the site. One picture in the Army purports to show an RPG found at the scene. Presumably it’s alongside a dead body, but the report is redacted to cover the dead, and the round can’t be seen.
I’m
still not clear that the Apache crew should have fired on this group,
based on what looked like one man carrying an AK-47. But what is clear
is this happened in the course of a battle, in which U.S. troops nearby
were taking fire. And these “military-age men” as the military likes
to call them, appeared to be in some combat role.It’s also clear this was NOT an indiscriminate killing, and the helicopter crew had no way to know that a journalist was in the group. And look at the pictures. Once you believe the groups has RPG’s the Reuters camerman’s telephoto lens looks for all the world like a rocket launcher poking around the corner of the building.
The report also notes the cameraman was not wearing a PRESS vest, or anything else that would indicate he was a journalist. Not that it would have saved him that day.
If the Reuters photographer was shooting the war from the insurgents’ perspective, he was taking his life in his hands, and he paid dearly for it.
Read the full investigation, before condemning this as an act of “collateral murder.”
Tags: 15-6, Collateral Murder, Iraq, Reuters, WikiLeaks
Read more: Upon Further Review: Collateral Murder? | Jamie McIntyre
Comments (53)
0
John Smith · 166 weeks ago
I wouldn't be surprised if this was another Reuters incident where they
were trying to set up (read:fake) photography from the insurgent
perspective, but then went horribly wrong. This could also explain the
reason for no press vests being worn and the fact that not all of the
men had weapons.
-3
Curt · 166 weeks ago
The AR-15 investigation in no way shape or form lets these Apache
pilots off the hook. In fact it provides further evidence of an even
bigger war crime. But more on that later.
Justice in America is often an oxymoron. In America Rodney King was LAWFULLY beaten. Nothing has changed.
I would like to know who in the hell was responsible for training these Apache pilots. I have not served 30 years in the military or even 5 but I did learn the theory of a few of the basics. One of the things that I learned from Captain(at that time) Gary Householder of Tennessee, and if anyone can find him we can ask him to verify this, is that in war there is a strong tendency to dehumanize the enemy which must be guarded against,
or ones actions can become very barbaric.
Now having never been in combat I can not say that I would have upheld that rule. But if I did not it would have been a failure on my part, not a one time failure for example like identifying a camera as a weapon but a systematic failure. How has the US military applied its own lesson in this war? Is that lesson not taught anymore. Perhaps there is another rule that says it goes out the window for COIN operations. Is that a lesson that I never learned because I fell asleep in class.
Now how about the part where the pilot justifies his firing on the van that has come to help the wounded as preventing the insurgents from escaping. This same justification is repeated in the AR- 15 investigation.
Damn what Army was I trained by. I thought that it was a no no to fire on those people who were wounded and incapable of fighting and a really big no no to attack those personnel who were involved with the care of the wounded.
That so much emphasis is placed on preventing the escape of the insurgents is evidence to me that the real reason efforts were made to keep this tape from the public is that there is a public rules of engagement and there is a secret rules of engagement, or perhaps an unofficial official rules of engagement. If we review, lets say 1000 Apache video and audio tapes, will further cases be found to corroborate this suspicion?
Now is this a case of collateral murder or just plain murder? A few of the men in this group were armed.
Duh in case you did not notice there was a civil war going on at the time. Any Iraqi could not only expect to be attacked by US forces at anytime they could be expected to be attacked by a rival Iraqi militia at any time.
On second hand maybe this is a good rule after all. It would justify me going in to a Star Wars coffee shop and opening fire on everyone openly carrying a fire arm. That would reduce the number of conservatives in the US somewhat faster. After all those conservatives have far far far less reason to carry around a weapon than any Iraqi did or does. Those conservatives have a weapon in a coffee shop if they are not planning to go on a shooting spree they must be planning on robing the bank next door right?
Ok the military could say that outside of the two children no innocent Iraqis were hurt. In 2007 18 out of 20 Iraqi males were either insurgents fighting the US occupation of their country or they supported the insurgents. Since only 13 Iraqi males of military age were shot we can be pretty sure that the 2 out of the 20 that supported the US occupation were not present in this gathering of males at the time. That is an argument that works with me.
There is one possible legal defense for these pilots that would work for me. That they were given mind altering drugs before this incident without their knowledge.
If that guy who bombed the federal building in Oklahoma had stopped and brought two of the children injured there to the hospital would we give him any credit? The Columbine shooters at least had the sense to commit suicide. Hey they too were only killing people that they thought were pricks.
Does this tape betray the true nature of how the US military behaves? If it does they are really some dangerous people. They are so dangerous that they should not be allowed to come back to the US.
The American people will be safer with out them.
Justice in America is often an oxymoron. In America Rodney King was LAWFULLY beaten. Nothing has changed.
I would like to know who in the hell was responsible for training these Apache pilots. I have not served 30 years in the military or even 5 but I did learn the theory of a few of the basics. One of the things that I learned from Captain(at that time) Gary Householder of Tennessee, and if anyone can find him we can ask him to verify this, is that in war there is a strong tendency to dehumanize the enemy which must be guarded against,
or ones actions can become very barbaric.
Now having never been in combat I can not say that I would have upheld that rule. But if I did not it would have been a failure on my part, not a one time failure for example like identifying a camera as a weapon but a systematic failure. How has the US military applied its own lesson in this war? Is that lesson not taught anymore. Perhaps there is another rule that says it goes out the window for COIN operations. Is that a lesson that I never learned because I fell asleep in class.
Now how about the part where the pilot justifies his firing on the van that has come to help the wounded as preventing the insurgents from escaping. This same justification is repeated in the AR- 15 investigation.
Damn what Army was I trained by. I thought that it was a no no to fire on those people who were wounded and incapable of fighting and a really big no no to attack those personnel who were involved with the care of the wounded.
That so much emphasis is placed on preventing the escape of the insurgents is evidence to me that the real reason efforts were made to keep this tape from the public is that there is a public rules of engagement and there is a secret rules of engagement, or perhaps an unofficial official rules of engagement. If we review, lets say 1000 Apache video and audio tapes, will further cases be found to corroborate this suspicion?
Now is this a case of collateral murder or just plain murder? A few of the men in this group were armed.
Duh in case you did not notice there was a civil war going on at the time. Any Iraqi could not only expect to be attacked by US forces at anytime they could be expected to be attacked by a rival Iraqi militia at any time.
On second hand maybe this is a good rule after all. It would justify me going in to a Star Wars coffee shop and opening fire on everyone openly carrying a fire arm. That would reduce the number of conservatives in the US somewhat faster. After all those conservatives have far far far less reason to carry around a weapon than any Iraqi did or does. Those conservatives have a weapon in a coffee shop if they are not planning to go on a shooting spree they must be planning on robing the bank next door right?
Ok the military could say that outside of the two children no innocent Iraqis were hurt. In 2007 18 out of 20 Iraqi males were either insurgents fighting the US occupation of their country or they supported the insurgents. Since only 13 Iraqi males of military age were shot we can be pretty sure that the 2 out of the 20 that supported the US occupation were not present in this gathering of males at the time. That is an argument that works with me.
There is one possible legal defense for these pilots that would work for me. That they were given mind altering drugs before this incident without their knowledge.
If that guy who bombed the federal building in Oklahoma had stopped and brought two of the children injured there to the hospital would we give him any credit? The Columbine shooters at least had the sense to commit suicide. Hey they too were only killing people that they thought were pricks.
Does this tape betray the true nature of how the US military behaves? If it does they are really some dangerous people. They are so dangerous that they should not be allowed to come back to the US.
The American people will be safer with out them.
-2
Johnny · 166 weeks ago
Curt shut the Fu$% up before you open your mouth! You said it you tard
you havn't served or been to combat, so go choke yourself!!!
+1
p3jockey · 166 weeks ago
Curt,
Keep in mind that our American Forces are fighting an "unconventional" war with no clear lines that distinguish good guys from bad guys. Given the limits of even our best technology to help ID who is and is not a threat in a "hot zone", does it not occur to you that the pilots must make judgement calls on targets that are moving about in a fire fight. What really disgusts me about your comments and others who would lump our fighting men and women into the catagory of "baby killers" is that you folks wake up every day and get to enjoy your coffee, smell the roses, play your video games, watch your sports and otherwise fully experience the fruits of freedom here in America ( to include free speech) without any sense of what HELL are troops are experiencing every minute of their lives in combating those that would take away the said above. To even suggest legal processes or consequences for our hero soldiers shows how out of touch with reality you and others really are.
Keep in mind that our American Forces are fighting an "unconventional" war with no clear lines that distinguish good guys from bad guys. Given the limits of even our best technology to help ID who is and is not a threat in a "hot zone", does it not occur to you that the pilots must make judgement calls on targets that are moving about in a fire fight. What really disgusts me about your comments and others who would lump our fighting men and women into the catagory of "baby killers" is that you folks wake up every day and get to enjoy your coffee, smell the roses, play your video games, watch your sports and otherwise fully experience the fruits of freedom here in America ( to include free speech) without any sense of what HELL are troops are experiencing every minute of their lives in combating those that would take away the said above. To even suggest legal processes or consequences for our hero soldiers shows how out of touch with reality you and others really are.
+1
p3jockey · 166 weeks ago
The true lesson here is , if you do not want to be mistaken as an enemy
combatant, stay out and far far away from the ugly business of the
combat. These people died because of their own doings...war is hell on
earth.
0
Teufel Hunden · 166 weeks ago
In the immortal words of Col. Jessup... "You don't want the truth
because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me
on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code,
loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending
something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the
inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the
blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the
manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you,
and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and
stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are
entitled to."
0
Teufel Hunden · 166 weeks ago
Saw the video btw and the stills above do not show the best angle or moment where the RPG and AK are visible.
-3
Curt · 166 weeks ago
When I arrived the first time in Europe it was in Madrid around one
year after an attempted coup to bring the Francoists back to power. I
saw these Policemen all around carrying submachine guns. They were
called the Guardia Civil. Some one told me, in America when a bankrobber
runs in to a crowd the police will not shoot to avoid hurting an
inncocent person. Here in Spain the Guardia Civil will shoot to make
sure that the bankrobber does not get away.
Spare me your ******** about the difficulty of telling the god guys from the bad guys in Iraq. Anyone who shoots at an American is a good guy trying to free their country of illegal invaders. If you do not want to be shot at do not go there. Spare me your ******** about war being an ugly bussiness. or whatever. If you can not understand that unarmed men, not firing at you are not enemy combantants, you are in the wrong business. What the **** is training for so that you can ignore it. You can say that there are no rules in war.
If you do that you are saying there are no rules in life. Just face it you are a nihlist. Do not forget Col. Jessup was the bad guy. The one that was placed under arrest. He was not an officer or a soldier to emmulate.
Spare me your ******** about the difficulty of telling the god guys from the bad guys in Iraq. Anyone who shoots at an American is a good guy trying to free their country of illegal invaders. If you do not want to be shot at do not go there. Spare me your ******** about war being an ugly bussiness. or whatever. If you can not understand that unarmed men, not firing at you are not enemy combantants, you are in the wrong business. What the **** is training for so that you can ignore it. You can say that there are no rules in war.
If you do that you are saying there are no rules in life. Just face it you are a nihlist. Do not forget Col. Jessup was the bad guy. The one that was placed under arrest. He was not an officer or a soldier to emmulate.
0
Alex -DC · 166 weeks ago
If there's any kind of lesson to be learned from this story is being on
the worng end of Apache is dangerous to your health. People for some
incomprehensible reason completely lose perspecitve around stories like
this one. This is US vs. THEM. All of US and all of THEM. If some of
them want to join us, fine. But if you start empathizing with them, you
are joining them. These wars are crazy, they will lead to crazy
cirsumstances and results. Dont hang out with insurgents and don't point
your cameras at Apaches or Abrams'. And you probably will be fine. If
you stay in Paris.
0
f451 · 166 weeks ago
I have been in this situation before as a photographer. You want the
best covereage at any cost. That is their job! They just got too close
at the wrong time. The are truly colateral damage, but they placed
themselves in this position just as a reporter with the US military
would be if they got killed (Erny Pile comes to mind!).
As a professional photographer or journalist, that is the price you pay to get that perfect shot or perfect story.
As a professional photographer or journalist, that is the price you pay to get that perfect shot or perfect story.
0
Philip Smucker · 166 weeks ago
Hi. Jamie. Great to meet u last night and hear your views on this
video. I don't disagree with your assessment, but I think there are
enough unknown facts here to warrant re-opening the investigation. If
the firing was in error, the Reuters cameraman's family can receive
compensation. We have created a fund for this very reason and it serves a
good cause. Finally, I think the audio is as or more instructive as the
pictures -- which by your own admission -- are fuzzy. As we hear the
pilot say to the man crawling on the ground that he should pick up a gun
-- we clearly understand that he knows that this is required for ROE.
Finally, a full investigation will account for the ownership of the van
and the identities of the children therein. Generally speaking, most
insurgents don't drive around with kids in the back seat. This appears
-- by all measure -- to have been a genuine attempt to rescue the
cameraman. I tend to believe the Reuters executives and their
explanation, but only a full investigation will reveal all the facts in
the case. Best, Philip
+1
Curt · 166 weeks ago
Any American who would call an Iraqi, "a prick" who has been shooting
at Americans in IRAQ is someone who knows absolutely nothing about
American history themselves, and qualify themselves as someone under
serving of US citizenship. Did I say that right? You betcha!
-1
Curt · 166 weeks ago
The Colonel Jessups of the military are not an asset to America but a danger to America.
Long live Gomer Pyle!
Long live Gomer Pyle!
+2
gallglas · 166 weeks ago
Several rules were broken here.
Children under the age of fifteen were brought into a firefight by the insurgents. This broke a rule of war.
An alleged evac vehicle full of recuers was driven into the combat zone sans white flag or red cross,crescent markings and with the children.
The evac personnel were not marked as such.
The press was not clearly mark and could be charged with spying/espionage. The press camera's recovered from the site show pictures of hummvees and other aspects of the operation being run by the American troops.
While carrying a rifle even an AK is common among many in Iraq the prescence of the ANTITANK RPG which is effective way on out to 1000 mt and can shoot down Helo's is a clear indication of hostile intent towards helo's and ground vehicles up to tank power.
Children under the age of fifteen were brought into a firefight by the insurgents. This broke a rule of war.
An alleged evac vehicle full of recuers was driven into the combat zone sans white flag or red cross,crescent markings and with the children.
The evac personnel were not marked as such.
The press was not clearly mark and could be charged with spying/espionage. The press camera's recovered from the site show pictures of hummvees and other aspects of the operation being run by the American troops.
While carrying a rifle even an AK is common among many in Iraq the prescence of the ANTITANK RPG which is effective way on out to 1000 mt and can shoot down Helo's is a clear indication of hostile intent towards helo's and ground vehicles up to tank power.
+1
galloglas · 166 weeks ago
What I saw was:
1. An anti vehcile ambush squad with a van for displacing and human shields to prevent counter fire from American troops.
2. The squad consisted of a RPG team with a fire team of rifles to cover and or over run the kill zone to kill any American's who survived the RPG hit or perhaps capture and to behead on video later. When the RPG team displaced the rifles would cover him/them with fire.
3. The van would approach and all the men who were armed would place their rifles and launchers inside so as to be seen as "un armed civilians" of course the children would have be a disguise or shields.
4. then the van and squads would displace to another fire point.
what happen was, the squad did not count on the Apache gunships flying top cover.
The squad got detected and was destroyed, the "unmarked van ran in to evac weapons and casualties " was taken underfire and destroyed.
The press just embedded with the wrong side and apparently embedded with a bunch of dumbasses.
All legal and permmisable under the laws of war.
Good shooting guys OoHRAaaaa!
1. An anti vehcile ambush squad with a van for displacing and human shields to prevent counter fire from American troops.
2. The squad consisted of a RPG team with a fire team of rifles to cover and or over run the kill zone to kill any American's who survived the RPG hit or perhaps capture and to behead on video later. When the RPG team displaced the rifles would cover him/them with fire.
3. The van would approach and all the men who were armed would place their rifles and launchers inside so as to be seen as "un armed civilians" of course the children would have be a disguise or shields.
4. then the van and squads would displace to another fire point.
what happen was, the squad did not count on the Apache gunships flying top cover.
The squad got detected and was destroyed, the "unmarked van ran in to evac weapons and casualties " was taken underfire and destroyed.
The press just embedded with the wrong side and apparently embedded with a bunch of dumbasses.
All legal and permmisable under the laws of war.
Good shooting guys OoHRAaaaa!
-3
Curt · 166 weeks ago
I did not see a fire fight. I saw a Columbine style massacre.
A few weeks ago an 88 year old German man was sentenced to life in prison for the murder of THREE Dutch civlians that he has ORDERED to do. These pilots were not ordered to commit murder they begged for permission to commit murder. These pilots should know that some people have long memories. Of course being surrounded by a bunch of like minded mass murderers I do not think that will make them sweat.
A few weeks ago an 88 year old German man was sentenced to life in prison for the murder of THREE Dutch civlians that he has ORDERED to do. These pilots were not ordered to commit murder they begged for permission to commit murder. These pilots should know that some people have long memories. Of course being surrounded by a bunch of like minded mass murderers I do not think that will make them sweat.
-3
Curt · 165 weeks ago
Hahahaha you must think that I am only joking but you should take my
advice seriously. It might save someones life. Now anyone who says they
made themselves a target by moving towards a firefight a block or two
away in a large city is quite clearly from Wyoming, Mississippi your
Utah. For people who have grown up in a large city a block or two away
is like being in another county when you are from a rural area.
-3
Curt · 165 weeks ago
Ok Mr. Expert, if you are such an expert tell me why did the Apache
Pilot shoot the men in front of that house and not the house next door?
Does an expert know that if the men had been walking in the other
direction what that would have indicated? Does an expert know if they
had been walking along a street parrallel to where the Americans were
being fired upon what that would have indicated? Does an expert know if
one of the men had pointed his middle finger at the Apache pilot what
that would have indicated?
To say that Pat Tillmans death was a tragedy but not a crime might be an accurated statement.
To say that the pilot needed to make a split second decision is to throw up a smoke screen. This crime was not caused because someone needed to make a split second decision. It was made because someone placed absolutely no value on the lives of military age Iraqi men. He placed no value on the lives of military age Iraqi men because that is the way he was trained. Am I wrong about his training?
If I am not wrong about his training, should he be treated as a sponge who bears no responsiblity for accepting what he is fed? If I am wrong about his training then other people in the military should be as appalled as I am. I would seem that one person in the military is as appalled as I am or this video would have never made it to Wikileaks. I wonder if that person was a Veteran of combat in Bagdad? I wonder if secretly he purposely fired his weapon in such a way that he would never hit someone shooting at him?
I wonder if he placed his life in the hands of another power? Was he an exceptional person? Is he alone?
To say that Pat Tillmans death was a tragedy but not a crime might be an accurated statement.
To say that the pilot needed to make a split second decision is to throw up a smoke screen. This crime was not caused because someone needed to make a split second decision. It was made because someone placed absolutely no value on the lives of military age Iraqi men. He placed no value on the lives of military age Iraqi men because that is the way he was trained. Am I wrong about his training?
If I am not wrong about his training, should he be treated as a sponge who bears no responsiblity for accepting what he is fed? If I am wrong about his training then other people in the military should be as appalled as I am. I would seem that one person in the military is as appalled as I am or this video would have never made it to Wikileaks. I wonder if that person was a Veteran of combat in Bagdad? I wonder if secretly he purposely fired his weapon in such a way that he would never hit someone shooting at him?
I wonder if he placed his life in the hands of another power? Was he an exceptional person? Is he alone?
+1
scott · 165 weeks ago
Your comments generally demonstrate your lack of understanding of LOAC
and the Geneva Conventions. These regulations validate the actions of
these pilots; while you may think of them as something else, they not
murderers under international, US or Iraqi law. Your continuing rants
merely demostrate the inability to look at the full video footage
objectively. I would venture to guess that you were (though most likely
in hindsight starting in 2004 or 2005) always against the coalition
intervention in Iraq. Am I correct in that assumption? It would not
surprise me to learn that you are unaware of the repeated violations of
UN mandates purported by Saddam's government that gave the US led
coalition the legal right (and per UN charter - requirement) to
intervene. This is not the same as saying there was a US Security
Council Resolution authorizing the intervention, but it does mean that
the US led intervention was in complete compliance with international
law.
0
scott · 165 weeks ago
So, what I've learned by reading the above post - you and others have
resorted to emotion and name calling vice having a intelligent
discussion that addresses the legal and moral justifications and
ramifications of this incident. I've also learned that you have not done
thorough research on the US military or US actions in Iraq - though I
suspect you view many blogs and watch a lot of T.V. on the subject.
Additionally, other have forgotten that you are entitled to your opinion, even if counter to their own and seemingly uneducated on the subject being discussed. This point is brought up to address why the video was not released in 2007, since you are obviously unaware of US code that prohibits the release of media that displays a capability of US forces (addressed by classification level of the system generating the media).
Additionally, other have forgotten that you are entitled to your opinion, even if counter to their own and seemingly uneducated on the subject being discussed. This point is brought up to address why the video was not released in 2007, since you are obviously unaware of US code that prohibits the release of media that displays a capability of US forces (addressed by classification level of the system generating the media).
0
scott · 165 weeks ago
The release of the video through unofficial channels is curious, though
not unheard of in recent years. Would it surprise you to know that
there are tens of thousands of pages of text, pictures and video that
are still classified from WWII? It probably does, which goes back to my
comment about being uneducated on the topic you are attempting to discus
and argue.
In closing - your comments are interesting, or perhaps comical, as are many of the responses. I hope that you take the time to educate yourself on the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC), the Geneva Conventions, Iraqi Public Law (though you'll need to read arabic, which I'll assume you can't), US Code applicable to the military and state secrets, and hopefully stop basing your opinion off skewed web sites and T.V. I would say the same to many of those that responded to you with somewhat colorful language. Also, pardon the multiple post – I’m long winded at times.
In closing - your comments are interesting, or perhaps comical, as are many of the responses. I hope that you take the time to educate yourself on the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC), the Geneva Conventions, Iraqi Public Law (though you'll need to read arabic, which I'll assume you can't), US Code applicable to the military and state secrets, and hopefully stop basing your opinion off skewed web sites and T.V. I would say the same to many of those that responded to you with somewhat colorful language. Also, pardon the multiple post – I’m long winded at times.
0
Don · 151 weeks ago
Yup, it's right that this tech (or at least something similar) has been
around since the 70s. I remember the L1A1 SLRs (British FAL) using
7.62s with plastic shells. Don't know what made them get rid of it
though.
Read more: Upon Further Review: Collateral Murder? | Jamie McIntyre
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